Finally, it’s time to unveil the curtains on the soon to be released N64 game, The Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask. First of all, we’d like to introduce Shigeru Miyamoto, the producer of the game, as well as Eiji Anouma and Yoshiaki Koizumi, who were one of the six directors on the project. This is their first interview, so we asked them a few questions. What kind of team created this Zelda? We’ll pass the conversation over to them!

Eiji Anouma

A staff member from Nintendo Research & Development Department.

His works include “Marvelous: Another Treasure Island” for the SNES, as well “The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time” for the Nintendo 64.

Yoshiaki Koizumi

A staff member from Nintendo Research & Development Department.

His works include “The Legend of Zelda: Link’s Awakening” for Game Boy, as well as “Super Mario 64” and “The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time”, both for the Nintendo 64.

Shigeru Miyamoto

He is the General Manager of the Nintendo Research & Development Department.

He oversaw development of “The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time” for the Nintendo 64, “Super Mario 64″, and “Kirby’s Dream Land” for Game Boy. He’s also contributed to numerous other projects, including “Pokémon.”

Part 1: “Zelda is Always About Creating Something New”

First of all, I would like to know your background. Please tell me about your experiences in the business.

Koizumi: I was in charge of the player controller, just like in the previous game, Ocarina of Time. The same character is also used here, but there are many additional elements too. One such thing was designing scheduled events, which are separate from the main scenario. I created these side quests.

Miyamoto: For this Zelda game, we had six directors in charge of game design. When other jobs are taken into consideration, it is necessary we have more directors. So, there were six people involved at the heart of this game. The general director is Anouma, side quests and player controller was done by Koizumi, Takano for scripting, Usui for dungeon design, Yamada for system management, and Kawakoshi was the cutscene director.

Anouma: We call this our “multifaected director system” (laughs.) 

Miyamoto: Anouma, when we were working on Ocarina of Time, you were mostly in charge of the dungeons. Previously, you had been the director on Marvelous: Another Treasure Island. But this time around, you also were in charge of the overworld itself.

Anouma: I’ll try and simplify it…more or less, I was in charge of the “fairy tale” aspect of this project. Whereas Koizumi was in charge of the people in Clock Town, to add a shade of realism to the story. I really tried to follow the same fantasy feel as my previous works, so you’ll find my contributions there. 

Koizumi: So then I brought a shade of realism into the mix.

Anouma: I think I hit the nail on the coffin when I say Koizumi integrated his own perspective on life in this (laughs.)

Koizumi: I really tried to throw in everything I’ve seen over my thirty years of life. 

Miyamoto: This is a heavy game (laughs.) 

Koizumi: In Clock Town, where I’m in charge, we do all the heavy-lifting. Anouma is in charge of everything “outside.” I’m trying to lift things off their conscience (laughs.) 

Since you made this all together, did you ever change course while discussing things?

Anouma: No, we don’t even discuss anything, really. For example, if it’s “something Koizumi thinks will work”, we are making things in such a way that they’ll turn out okay. Since we’ve been working with the same staff for a long time, we don’t have to describe how it should turn out. We trust each other in what we’re doing. In fact, we’re all waiting in anticipation to see the results. There are a number of directors, each of whom independently creates, and then at the end we bring it all together. That’s how I’d say we create our products.

Miyamoto: Indeed. We try not to mix people with insecurities into our team. Everyone on the staff is relatively confident in their abilities. 

Anouma: I agree.

Miyamoto: We get together and talk about all the overall specifications. So, in the first couple of months of development, there’s a lot of back and forth. Once we feel somewhat settled a couple months after that, we spread apart and each person would create their own section.

Anouma: If we have a shared mindset, we can each work towards it on our own. I think it’s a good avenue to make a new product. I’m very happy that because of Ocarina of Time, I’m able to do this. 

Are most of the staff members from the previous game?

Koizumi: Yes, they are. Although there are some newcomers as well.

Miyamoto: Actually, at first, I cut the staff from the previous game in half. We then brought in some new people, but I knew we had to bring the old ones back because the conditions were somewhat unreasonable. So, we ended up with about 70% of the same staff members in the end. Since I was the overall producer, in the end the responsibilities fall on my shoulders due to my position. That is to say, if something’s “unfinished”, I’m responsible for the quality of said work. That’s why I tend to visit the site by myself and provide some work, but this time around all I said was, “if it’s not finished in time, we won’t release it.” I really didn’t do anything after the early meetings. In the latter half of development, I did monitor and discuss things a little bit. I’d say, “Don’t be surprised! I’m just testing things as a member of the Mario Club.” (laughs.)

Koizumi: We also heard rumors like, “Miyamoto-san isn’t saying anything. Maybe he’s going to turn around and say something later in development?!” or something along those lines.

Miyamoto: It was really easy. This time around, it was a lot of fun.

That’s because your relationships are built on trust, isn’t it?

Miyamoto: Yeah, I could already see that halo above Anouma (laughs.) Every day I’d see that halo and say, “Good bye!” as I’d go home early. 

So how long did it take?

Anouma: I just checked that. The project started February 1st last year.

Miyamoto: And we had been discussing things for a little over a month before that. So it took exactly one year.

During that one year, did both Koizumi and Anouma’s lives become dedicated to the project?

Koizumi: I was already busy at work planning another game. I was incredibly motivated, but then Miyamoto…

Miyamoto: Called you back.

Koizumi: Little whispers started calling to me, “Zelda…Zelda…Zelda” And before I knew it, my game was canned! 

Miyamoto: (laughs.)

Koizumi: I was shocked~ (laughs.)

Miyamoto: Usually I call them back around July or August, when I can no longer take control of the situation. But in this case, around the first few months I said, “I don’t think I can do this, so do you mind coming back for a little while?” 

Anouma: I tried to get a handle on things myself too. But I was helpless alone and wanted Koizumi to come back. I practically begged for him, there was no way I could do it all by myself.

Miyamoto: And so, the project continued growing bigger and bigger. At first, I told them they only had to change the dungeon layouts, but things didn’t turn out that way (laughs.) Kawagoe, who helped directed cutscenes said we should pull Koizumi out of whatever he’s working on.

So, the team didn’t originally start with six directors? You had to pull Koizumi from what he was working on?

Miyamoto: Yes, but we started working in earnest once I called him back. Up until then everything was trial and error, so I’d say that’s where the project really started. 

Koizumi: I think I cancelled my game proposal around the end of May…

Miyamoto: I was pretty frustrated when they said it’d take three years. So I decided we’d do it in only one year. I wanted to say to them, “If you’re able to make it, we can do this all together!” The reason I suggested one year was because the engine was already in place. If that remained and only the scenario needed to be changed, it can certainly be done if the game is a reasonable size. 

In Zelda’s case, the series only progresses one title at a time. So, we have to repeat the same brainstorming process. Usually, it ends up taking up to two years to complete a project. So, in the beginning it can take up an entire year experimenting on new ideas if the team is pretty small. Furthermore, if hardware changes are taken into consideration, it can even take up to three. That’s another year we have to study the hardware, after all.

But, the period in which we are really making the game only takes about a year. This time, since it began, we’ve had about 30 to 50 people on the project. A lot of people ended up working overtime due to the sheer volume of work that had to be done on Zelda. It can be quite demanding if we want to keep everything fresh and exciting. After all, we’ve made something completely new this time around. Suffice to say, this was one tough year. I can assure you that. 

This Zelda has a completely different story this time around. I feel the atmosphere is very new.

Miyamoto: I guess you’d say it’s very “Zelda-like.” In the sense that Zelda has always been about experimenting with fresh ideas for each hardware. That’s what I mean when I call it “Zelda-like.” 

A new game for the N64 was made and released in such a short period of time. Isn’t that rare in and of itself? I kept wondering how it’d be different from the previous game. I think everyone was expecting it once it was said, “We’re doing something completely different!” I could feel it.

Koizumi: I asked Miyamoto, “What should I do?” after my project was terminated (laughs.) Of course, Miyamoto responded, “Do whatever you can!” 

Miyamoto: (laughs.)

Anouma: That’s what they told me too! I thought that instruction was completely useless. So I kept thinking while I listened (laughs.) Well, the very first project I ever worked on was a board game. It was a story about a cop and a thief, and the idea was to catch the thief within a week. In fact, I wanted it to be a game that could be completed in an hour. So I thought, “Why not screw it into Zelda somehow?” 

Miyamoto: It just so happened to mesh well together. The size itself wasn’t like “8 or however many chapters” but rather something compact. It’s creating a system in which it can be played over and over again. In fact, the more you play it, the more in depth it becomes. I always wanted something like that in Zelda.

Because, what we have created is something akin to a movie you don’t want to fast forward through. After all, you start to feel uninvested in your work after viewing it over and over so many times. But here, there appears to be a build up for everything that’s established, and that gives it a unique flavour. I think that kind of direction suits us well. We’ve always been looking for that kind of system.

Koizumi: I knew Miyamoto’s been wanting to say, “I want to make a short Zelda game” all along. 

Miyamoto: Stuff like, “Let’s have about four dungeons” or “I want to use this boss fight twice.” Through that we made it a lot denser. That way, the core of the game could be a lot more thoughtful. You know, the details. 

Koizumi: I’ve learned how difficult it can be to create a lot of things. In the 3 years it took to make the previous game, I came to learn a lot. So this time around, we systematically decided to make something highly replayable using things we already have.

Miyamoto: Some parts were also a lot easier. The “foundation” aspect was already made, so we just had to add a fresh coat of paint. Using parts we can from the previous game is a good idea, such as the menus or naming screen. 

Anouma: That wouldn’t need to be changed, or rather doesn’t have to be. We felt it was the best idea to use those and keep them as is. 

Miyamoto: It was more so about having the game itself evolve, as we wanted it to be something new. We were really ambitious. 

Part 2: “Condensing a Three Year Project Down to One”

The story itself is also unlike anything else in Zelda so far. Isn’t that something we don’t see very often? In the previous Zelda games, there is always a hero who rises up and fights against the main villain, Ganon. That seemed to always be the trend of the game. In Majora’s Mask, the main character really is just a young boy. Even though he’s developed more of a mature side after Ocarina of Time, I’d say he’s really just a child still. He meets Skull Kid, and Epona and his ocarina are stolen…then all of a sudden he’s lost in this world where the moon is falling. Did you have it in mind to make this the story from the beginning?

Anouma: To make the story last three days, we really had to pack each of those days full. Of course, it needed an ending so we decided to make the moon fall. That was my first idea upon making a new game. Then, when the moon falls so many times, the game ends. We had to do it that way in order to make the game replayable. Once that system was set in place, it was easy to decide upon what the story should be. 

Miyamoto: The Zelda games have been a little heroic in all the previous entries up until now. I didn’t want to go too far with that, I was always thinking about making Link more of a normal boy. However, I do think a lot of players feel strongly towards the former idea. Those who openly have a strong attachment to Zelda often say, “I want to play as an Adult Link!”, but there are some others who also say, “Isn’t Link supposed to be a child in Zelda?”  Of course, we had our own opinions too. We began thinking about who would make for the most interesting villain out of all the characters we had already created. I thought about Skull Kid, who decided to do something terrible and attack Link in the woods. Before that idea, we had gone through a couple of different opening cutscenes, but I’ll leave that aside (laughs.) At any rate, Link was being dragged into this surreal world, where Ganon wasn’t the main villain but rather this mysterious, skinny figure who’s causing mischief while playing the ocarina. From this perspective, it makes sense for Child Link to be involved in such an incident. My only request was that the game should be made dense with content. As long as it was finished, anything was acceptable (laughs.) I made it clear that was the most important part. At the start of it, the staff seemed pretty stressed out. They were saying things like, “There’s no way we can make it in a year!” 

How early was this in the process?

Anouma: It was really in the early days. A lot of things were still boiling down, like if we really were able to do it in a year. By all means, it should’ve been fated to crash and burn. We had just made and finished Ocarina of Time not too long ago. I already had ideas of what I wanted to do next, which was a very specific kind of story. From there, ideas kept building off of each other. I couldn’t stop myself once I started (laughs.)

Miyamoto: It was like you entered a deep state of zen, staring at cherry blossoms in a longhouse (laughs.)

Anouma: I was just like, “Alright! Let’s do this!” 

Miyamoto: Stick to Japanese food, don’t mix anything Western in your diet! I kept telling him things like that, as if he was trying to redo a beef roast with a different flavour. 

Anouma: They were necessary instructions in order to make it under a realistic schedule – so how do we make it compact on top of all that? I kept trying to figure out what we should be doing. Once Koizumi came back and we discussed things, it all started taking shape into what you see now. The first thing we had to think about was where to take the story, which began to evolve from a small town, into three days in a compact world. We settled on the idea of it being, “Something you can sit down and play for a long time.” 

What was that one year like?

Miyamoto: Since I’ve been doing this for a long time, the last year of a three year project starts to feel pretty familiar. It really did feel like in this case we only worked on it for one year total. It just progressed so well despite being as dense as it is. 

Koizumi: Last summer there was an event called Spaceworld. At the time, we needed to start putting together the pieces in order to be prepared for it. So, as soon as we started discussing things, somebody made a progress chart. I looked at it for the first time in a while, and it’s nearly identical to what we have. So in this case, we made the project as smoothly as planned.

Miyamoto: Isn’t that unusual?

Koizumi: And even so, we included more things than we proposed. 

Anouma: Even though your time runs out in three days, you can play your ocarina and return to the start. That’s how the game works this time, but what kind of state does that leave Link in? There was a question of how we should make the save system work when going back in time. There was an opinion that, “I feel so sorry for the player, we should let them keep all the items they collected!” But I told them, “Doesn’t that take away from the tension?” 

Miyamoto: Many things have to be taken into consideration…like reasoning, reality, and feelings.

Anouma: In the end, I chose what I felt was right.

What do you mean by “right”?

Anouma: There are many numbers in the world of Zelda. Like how much you have of a certain item. I thought, “Let’s reduce that number to zero when they go back in time.” But, it keeps the player’s memory of specific accomplishments, like, “I got the bow! So I can still shoot it, right?” So I thought, “Let’s keep those kinds of memories.” So you can go back in time and still use the bow, but you won’t have any arrows. So then when you think, “I have to collect arrows now!” The player will recall an efficient route where they picked them up beforehand. I wanted it to be an encouraging game where the player can build themselves up again, even if they start from zero. So, at first the player might think, “This must be a lie!”, but they can only accept this is how this world works. I want them to figure out how to clear an area on their own.

Miyamoto: That’s the point, although it’s also about making a comeback once you start the next three day cycle. It’s very difficult to make it all connect comfortably without contradiction. Solving dungeons is the most important aspect of Zelda, and at first I was extremely against putting a time limit on that. But during the process of making the game, I became convinced it was a good idea and wanted to do something like, “We’re taking great care in making this three day game, so if you enter the dungeon near the end of the final day while the clock is still ticking, there is no way you’ll be able to finish it.” Because if you enter the dungeon even with one minute left, there is no tension at all if time flows endlessly inside there. So I decided to keep the clock ticking inside of dungeons, even if it went against the rules of Zelda. When I visited the Mario Club, I was met with a swarm of angry opinions like, “This doesn’t fit Zelda at all!” However, over time those voices changed to, “I’m glad you went with it after all.”

Anouma:“Aren’t dungeons supposed to give me the time to think?”, they said. “Up until now, Zelda was all about thinking carefully once I went inside dungeons.” But, now that time is running every moment, the moon will fall before you know it if you start slowing down. I was told, “This is too hard!” But ultimately, the challenge is about balancing tension and clearing the dungeon. It’s learning how to make those decisions, and it starts to become easier once you make a habit of it. 

Miyamoto: And there are some useful things the player might forget, such as the melody that slows down time. It’s something akin to the end of a Football or Rugby game. If you really need to stop the clock and think clearly, you can pause the game and do anything. It’s a feeling of tension I haven’t experienced in any game up to this point.

Did your reception at the Mario Club change over time?

Koizumi: It’s gone up.

Anouma: It was a disaster at first.

Miyamoto: “Kill yourself! (laughs.)

Koizumi: They didn’t say that, nothing like that. But, every day we were hearing harsh things.

Anouma: It was a rough start. Well, it was a total bust to say the least. It’s fair to say even I was struggling to make progress in the three days at first. So like we mentioned earlier, there is a way to slow down time we eventually implemented. Once everyone got used to it, the reception improved. 

Koizumi: It felt as if we were working with Mario Club.

Miyamoto: There’s a clear difference between making something interesting versus something fun. If you struggle in keeping the right balance, you’ll lack creativity in making something new. So it’s better to create something new first, and fine tune the balance later.

Part 3: “This Zelda is the result of, “wanting to avoid boredom and create something exciting.”

Miyamoto: This new Zelda is more incredible than previous games in the series. Even if you proceed with the project under the impression, “This is gonna be incredible!”, some others are going to doubt you. Like, what do they really mean by “incredible?” Does that mean it’s a more complex program, a larger game, or visually more beautiful? Of course, I want them to agree and say it’s“incredible”, but the word itself doesn’t clearly convey what the theme is. So, in comparison to previous Zelda games, this one is different in that I wanted it to clearly inspire such words. 

Anouma: That’s quite a concept (laughs.) 

Miyamoto: Indeed, and it changed the way we handled things. Instead of creating new characters, in order to suit our concept we chose to use ones that already existed. Since we had a year to make the game, it was really important to think about how that might work. In a typical game, you’ll hear me say,  “Oh, that was our concept? This is the first I’ve heard of it.”  I’m not sure how I would’ve gone about it alone (laughs.) But this time, we were able to properly discuss the story among our six directors.

Koizumi: We did discuss it.

How often do you have discussions together?

Koizumi: Not very often, really. At the beginning there was a lot. But it was necessary to have smaller group discussions, rather than getting everyone together.

Anouma: I really don’t like big meetings. It feels like a waste of time getting everyone together in one place. If just one person has a sense of what the problem is, then only those who can immediately fix it should be there. It doesn’t matter whether I’m present or not. If we come to a conclusion like “This is what we want to do” during a full discussion, then that’s fine. The only thing that really needs to be said is, “Let’s go with this!~” It advances much faster if each subcommittee works on their own. 

Koizumi: Although, there was a lack of communication… (laughs.)

Anouma: (Laughs.) We were all so busy towards the end of development. We tried to clean up our own messes, but sometimes we said to each other, “I can’t hear you!” Even so, we never encountered any accidents. 

Miyamoto: I’ll give you my opinion when we were touching things up towards the end of development…everyone stood silently when I tried to mix in some small talk, like naughty stories and stuff…(laughs) the tension was unbearable.

Both Koizumi and Anouma: Yeah, it was!

Miyamoto: You know exactly what I’m talking about (laughs.) But that sudden tension is what makes it so special, it’s ideal conditions for team work. 

It’s something that cannot be replaced. It makes personal works seem so lacklustre in comparison. 

Miyamoto: Oftentimes it’s like my coworkers view me as if I think, “I don’t have time for you!” from their perspective. 

Is that theory reliable? 

Anouma: I really did think that (laughs.)

Miyamoto: Well then, we’ll have a nice, slow conversation about that once the interview is over (laugh.)

Don’t you often think about your previous assets when creating a sequel to a game? Like when you hear feedback from players for example, “I really liked this character!” or “This type of world was well received.” It’s easier to know what to bring into a sequel if you know the things they liked. I know this is done by other major RPG developers besides Nintendo too. That way, you can attract new players by creating some new elements, without losing returning players. I think there’s a specific method of doing that. But this time around, this Zelda is full of new things. I wonder why that is? 

Koizumi: Once we reach a playable state with a game and we decide what material to add, often we realize what flaws our previous works had. For example, some might say the setting of the previous game, “Hyrule Field” was too big, so I think it’s best we avoid repeating such problems. It’s not a question of making a game around an existing world, but rather making a new world that suits this game. So, instead of using Hyrule, it was much easier to start it all over from scratch.

Anouma: Even then the designers will say to us, “Just use the same map terrain as before.” But I said, “Rather than doing that, it’ll be much faster if we just make it from scratch!” So I guess that’s what we mean. 

Miyamoto: If you recycle something from before and simply enhance it, no matter what it will come across lazy to a returning player. It doesn’t really improve things, so this was the only way to do it. Although it’s reusing the same foundation as before, this Zelda looks completely different from the last game. Since we used that same foundation we had to find other ways to make it interesting, or else the thing we’re making would be boring.

Koizumi: For both the creator and player.

Miyamoto: It’s boring just creating one and half more enemies than the previous game and calling it a day.

Anouma: That sense of familiarity can really get in the way and hinder creativity. 

Koizumi: I’m exhausted from feeling like, “I’m doing the same thing again.” I’d rather create something new.

Even though the main character, Link, is a child in the sequel like we’ve seen in some previous games, the expression on his face is a lot different. Instead of looking cute, he has an intimidating expression on his face that’s almost scary. As much as he does seem like the same Link from the previous game, you can tell he’s gone through a lot of changes. For example, let’s say someone who’s a big fan of the previous game says, “A sequel to Ocarina of Time?! I can’t wait to see the same Link again!” But then upon seeing how much Link has changed they say something like, “That’s not the same Link!” Was this something you intended from the start?

Koizumi: No, it wasn’t something we had in mind. The only intention is to bring characters over from the previous game, like “Epona”, the fairies, and Link with his green hat, of course. 

Miyamoto: The shields are a bit larger, but the swords haven’t gotten any longer, haven’t they?

Koizumi: No, they haven’t.

Anouma: To be honest, a lot of things have changed at the end of the day. We weren’t determined to make so many changes when we started out, so I’m not sure how that all came about. It was just like we were cooking it over again. But when it came all together as a whole at the end? It was something completely different.

Koizumi: It really just felt like it somehow changed along the way.

I heard through someone at the Public Relations department that an editor didn’t want to use any images of Link from the sequel in their magazine. They were strongly attached to the previous game and weren’t a fan of how he looked.

Anouma: Illustrations made for magazines are drawn independently from us. The artist who draws those also has to keep up with our process, and Link changes rapidly as we design him.

Miyamoto: The staff were pretty concerned about that, due to some suspicious looking characters and surreal mask designs. I think the designers were more concerned than I was, as they asked, “Are you sure you want to make a Zelda game like this?” So I told them, “No, keep working on it. After all, this is a side story.” On the contrary, I think this Zelda is very Zelda-like. But what do I mean by that? Well, it’s no different than “wonder” being the ongoing central theme of Mario. At Nintendo, our own theme is to let things evolve into something ambiguous, until it seems like something new we haven’t seen before.

Koizumi: I understand some people at the Mario Club felt the same way too. Those who are very invested in these characters might say, “They shouldn’t be doing that!” However, such opinions become less common as you come to understand the world of this game. 

What would say is the strongest selling point of this Zelda? Miyamoto answered this question before with, “The characters in this Zelda are lively.” I’m not sure what part of them is “lively”, but I’m sure this is something you come to understand while playing the game. 

Koizumi: They really do feel alive (laughs.) 

Miyamoto: I didn’t mean it in a way as if they’re cheerful (laughs.) But rather, what does it mean to keep your spirit in a gloomy place and be told, “Despite it all, you’re so lively!” That’s essentially what I mean by saying the word “lively.”

Part 4: “This Zelda is like a Reflection of the Player.”

This time I wrote an advertisement for Zelda. I see, so…”This time Zelda invokes a sense of horror. While retaining the traditional Zelda flair, a more mysterious and horrifying experience is created from masks, the moon, time, and encounters with bizarre characters.” 

Koizumi: Yes, that’s about right. 

I didn’t say the word “horror” in the sense that it’s like a Resident Evil game. I’m more so referring to how the moon is falling, or the “mysterious” time loop mechanic. I think that’s what makes it a little “horrifying.” 

Miyamoto: It was really difficult to find a way to convey the world of this Zelda through advertisements. I was concerned, like was it really okay to say, “The moon’s about to fall?” 

Anouma: What?!

Miyamoto: C’mon, it’s like saying, “Your luck is running out…”

Anouma: Oh, is that what you mean (laughs)?

Miyamoto: I was wondering how you would react. I mean it, nobody can afford to lose any luck!

KoizumI: Ah, there you go, a classic Miyamoto-san statement… (laughs.) 

Miyamoto: With the previous game beforehand, all it took was changing an ordinary “ceramic ocarina” into the “ocarina of time.” 

Anouma: Please spare us. Don’t make this attack right now, save it for one or two in the morning at least.

Koizumi: I’d laugh if I could, but all I can manage to say is, “huhhh…” 

So this is the team dynamic you’ve been talking about all this time. Just listening to these stories makes me wanna play the game! 

Miyamoto: It’s pretty difficult! At least, the first hour or so can be tough.

Anouma: It gets really fun after you persevere through all the hardships. 

Miyamoto: Believe me, it’s seriously challenging (laughs.) 

No, I think it’s really amazing you’re able to say those kinds of things in describing this game…

Miyamoto: I think the word “strategy” doesn’t suit this Zelda very well, as it’s not a very strategic game. Just as there is no strategy in reading a book, it’s meant to be digested thoroughly and enjoyed. Is the purpose of reading a book simply to finish it? If you were to ask me, I’d feel much differently. I really do want people to enjoy playing this. Of course there is a strategy to beating the four dungeons, but besides that you can enjoy meeting various people during the three days and seeing what they’re up to. You know, making people happy little by little, even if they’re having a bad day. You could plays for many days straight if you seek to build your reputation in this world like that. Be that as it may, there are many “things you don’t have to do” in order to beat the game, so if you want to you could play it that way. However, we wanted to create a game that would be satisfying even if you played it for a month straight. So, we made it in a way that the game doesn’t have a set path to completion from the start.

Koizumi: There are really a lot of things you “don’t have to do”, and that’s what makes it so interesting.

Miyamoto: I heard these two put a lot of their personal lives into it, like conversations they had with their wives (laughs.)

Koizumi: (Laughs.) There certainly are such metaphors in there. It’s quite an adult game, really. Although it’s suitable for children, there’s a lot of mature subtext in it adults will find interesting. I’m sure even if a child won’t recognize such things, in time they will come to understand as they grow older. Even though you’d think the world was presented from an adult perspective, the reason a lot of the events in the game seem so childish is because of a lack of common sense. So in reality, really the world is depicted from a child’s perspective, although it can be very mature at times.

Miyamoto: There are all kinds of people in this world, like those who believe the world will end in three days, and others who are just pretending to believe it. Some other people deny it, and there are also those who are scared or enjoy the chaos. The idea was to cram all these different characters into one space. 

Anouma: A lot of people flee town on the last day, but some of the stubborn ones remain.

Miyamoto: I’m sure I’m also among them somewhere (laughs.) 

Koizumi: Sometimes I think, “Which one would I be?” 

That’s very deep…

Miyamoto: We want people to enjoy that aspect of it, although some will certainly say it doesn’t sound like a video-game (laughs)! I think we’ve crossed the line into novel territory. 

There are more than several narratives in this game. Depending on the player’s actions and what route they take, their experiences will greatly differ. It would be difficult to express such a world in a novel. 

Anouma: It’s difficult to explain this game and convey how fun it is to people, they really just have to play it for themselves. For example, there’s a scene where a Goron talks to the Innkeeper’s older sister, and Link can listen in on the conversation if he’s there. She will ask, “What’s your name?” to which the Goron says, “It’s Link, goro.” Since she already accepted the reservation from him, Link cannot reserve a room. But if you go back in time and talk to her just a little before the Goron arrives, she will ask Link, “What’s your name?” instead. Even though the Goron made a reservation, Link speaking to her first has changed the flow of time. Once you play the game and manipulate time by your own hand, you’ll understand how fun it can be.

Miyamoto: That’s right, I want people to take notice of these things. Like if a character expresses regret over something, the cause of it must be something that happened in the past. So, you then decide to follow that character around to discover what important event caused such regret. There are some events that don’t have a clear answer though, so I’d like the player to connect the dots in their own mind in those cases.

I believe there’s a character called the Running Man, who’s an honest and hard working civilian. Since he’s a postman, he has to go around and collect mail by a certain time. He’s distressed and really wants to run away on the night of the third day, but can’t due to his job. Link is able to save people like these if he so chooses. But even if he doesn’t, it doesn’t matter since it’s their life and not his own. I think it’s very interesting that such mechanics are built in.

Miyamoto: I think you’ll understand such a thing if you’re a businessman (laughs.) So even if you find the dungeons difficult…you can find many other things to play around with.

Part 5: “The Game Differs Greatly Depending On How Invested You Are”

Since there are so many side quests in this Zelda, you can end up doing a few before even beating a dungeon. I’ve often found myself thinking, “This side event seems interesting” while trying to make my way through the story.

Anouma: This Zelda has a couple different play styles this time around. One such play style is focusing on side quests, while the other is solving dungeons like a traditional Zelda. Those who are coming straight off the previous game will probably take that route, but newcomers will be surprised at the amount of things to do.

Koizumi: Well, you can’t make progress if you only focus on side quests, of course. We would like you to do the main scenario too.

Miyamoto: Things also won’t turn out well if you aren’t familiar with the controls.

Koizumi: You really have to know what each button does.

Anouma: After all’s said and done, we have to cut straight to the point and have a game-like aspect to the theme. So, the moon will fall infinitely if you don’t learn how the game functions.

Koizumi: I find it interesting how going outside and mowing the lawn can relieve stress when you get stumped in Clock Town. Or even visiting my older sister and coming back to a dungeon later feeling reinvigorated like, “Let’s try this again!” after getting stuck on a puzzle earlier. So regardless you can always take a break, but the rule of the moon falling on the third day always stays. 

Miyamoto: Time is always ticking, and that really brings out the personality of the player. If it was me I’d be thinking I’m late for a meeting…

Anouma: Wow (laughs.) Really?

Koizumi: It’s just like my personal life (laughs.) 

Anouma: I’m terrible at reading time (laughs.)

Miyamoto: There was a time when I arrived two hours early at a Zelda event (laughs.) So, I went somewhere else to kill some time, and there was still another half hour to go when I came back. So I went out again, but as I was running back I realized I couldn’t make it in time. When I finally got there, I heard the event had just ended (laughs.) I’m ashamed to say the game really is a reflection of myself.

Koizumi: It’s right down to the personality, too…

Anouma: All of it’s clearly there, isn’t it? 

Terrifying…

Koizumi: That’s how we make things. 

Anouma: It’s really exciting wondering how people will utilize time in this game.

We’ve never seen quite a game like this before.

Miyamoto: It’s a game like never before. I don’t mean to claim video-games are a superior form of art over movies or novels by saying this, but…I think this was something only possible to portray in a video-game. It’s unlike anything I’ve seen in any movie, novel, or older video-game beforehand. Well, maybe there was this one very good game called “Shenmue” that played with the idea a little bit. I think I would define this concept as “multimedia.” We’ve forever been trying to depict “time travel”, “multiple stories”  and “multiple endings” in novels and films. But when you play this game, I think you’ll realize it’s a multi-story that could only be told through a video-game.

Other creative avenues such as movies or novels are very different in comparison. I got the impression that maybe modern day theatre is the closest to what you’re doing. 

Anouma: I guess it shares that same feeling of live entertainment that a theatre provides. 

Miyamoto: The theme is “liveliness” after all. 

I’m watching a living person move in front of me, and I don’t know where it’s gonna take me. Live theatre and video-games are perhaps the only two forms of modern day entertainment that can produce that feeling. 

Miyamoto: There are even some people who dance (laughs.)

Anouma: Oh no, there were also staff members Miyamoto forced to dance for him (laughs.)

Koizumi: The feeling of a live performance means every moment is shared in tandem with the player. Until now, the world progression has been dependent on the player’s own actions. But, things still happen in the world of this game even if the player does nothing. Of course some things will change if you decide to take action. The real world contains a lot of drama, doesn’t it? Even if there’s only five people present in a room, chances are they all still have completely different lives. Therefore, how do we introduce that in the game world? As they say in accordance with a theatre play, “How do you see it?” I think that’s a good rule of thumb, as they’ll start to improvise depending on the day. By doing so, their work becomes completely different from yesterday. That’s just like how this game becomes something different depending how each player relates to the story. It’s not something we intended when we designed it, as it just happened to “come out that way.”

Miyamoto: We don’t tend to think about concepts such as multiple stories and time travel when we begin planning a project. All I think about is, “creating a system that is interesting to play”, and as a result it turned out to be multi-story and so on.

Anouma: That’s true when you say it became that way as a result. We did approach making this in such an orthodox manner.

Aren’t games with multiple endings pretty common? What I mean by multiple endings is that you can’t finish the game as it is. For example, friends talk to each other and try things out, discovering something they didn’t know could change before. That’s the kind of thing you could only figure out by reading it in a magazine. More so, to experience it you have to start all over from the beginning. But in this Zelda, you can look back and forth in time to see all the changes for yourself. 

Miyamoto: Using save data from a friend wouldn’t be useful, you have to play with your own. 

It’d be like living in the middle of somebody else’s life.

Miyamoto: In order to make that difficult, the code for the Bomber’s Hideout differs between save data. That’s what really makes this game multifaceted. I heard the most challenging way to play it would be by stalking the characters in the overworld.

Anouma: You’d be chasing them around all day. 

Miyamoto: Chasing after thirty residents, nonetheless, and seeing what happens to them every day…

Koizumi: I watched someone enter a person’s house and listen to their conversation from the next room over (laughs.) I was very happy to see such a righteous person do that. 

Miyamoto: You know, he said he’d be able to go anywhere with ease if he were a fairy (laughs.) But, there were some parts of the project I didn’t wanna deal with after making it. Like a character dying just minutes after their introduction, I hate that kind of stuff. There are parts of this game that are brutal, just as you summarized as it being Zelda with a touch of horror.

Part 6: “Hollywood Isn’t The Only Royal Road to Productivity”

Miyamoto: A film named “Run Lola Run” came out just as we were making “Majora’s Mask.” (Editor’s note: A German film set in Berlin. In it, the main character Lola runs through the city collecting money in order to save her boyfriend’s life, who was involved in a crime.) When I first saw the trailer I thought, “This isn’t good!” Even though I was excited to see what they were aiming for, I was scared it was pretty similar to our idea. However, when I finally saw it I was pleased to see it was done gracefully in a film-like manner. We were definitely thinking on the same track, but I was convinced we’d be alright since our angle was more like a video-game. I’d have been more cautious if perhaps I’d seen the film during the planning stages…

Koizumi: The plot was already finished by that point.

Anouma: I’m more so surprised you went to see it…and during that busy time of year, even.

Koizumi: I just said, “Let’s go see that movie.”

Miyamoto: He said it was our job to go see it. And when I see something like that…I’m reminded that people who make films come from all over the world, and not just Hollywood. I get really encouraged when I see low budget films and animation from Europe. Everyone is always spending a lot of money to create massive productions to rival Hollywood when it comes to video-games. I always thought, “That’s not always the case when making things, is it?” The production system is similar between games and movies too, since both involve a producer and staff members. 

What other works have inspired you, if even in a similar manner to “Run Lola Run.” Do any come to mind? 

Koizumi: I was asked the same question the other day, and I answered, “No.”

Anouma: The theme of reversing time is something anyone can come up with, at the end of the day. 

Miyamoto: Sometimes I don’t wanna take the high road, anyway. 

Koizumi: I’ve only recently rediscovered the “Doraemon” series, which I watched when I was a small child. I’m strongly influenced by Fujiko Fujio. 

Miyamoto: Really?! 

Koizumi: Their writing approach in depicting a cynical story with such wit had a great influence on me. I thought to myself, “So this is where my way of thinking comes from” after reading one of their recently released paperbacks. The same could be said for “Link’s Awakening” or “Ocarina of Time”, but I suddenly became embarrassed once I was aware of their effect on me. But I swear I didn’t take any ideas from them (laughs.) 

Anouma: It’s just something that comes naturally.

Koizumi: They say even if you portray something in a cynical manner, the ending has to be gentle. 

Anouma: I have a soft spot for traditional adventure stories, like ones from Hayao Miyazaki. In fact, all the staff said my scripts were like Hayao Miyazaki’s (laughs.) 

Koizumi: He has a fondness for girls.

Anouma: However, I’m not a fan of boy-meets-girl stories, where the girl is stuck in a state of being just saying, “Help me!” 

Koizumi: Isn’t that how your part outside of Clock Town is though, Anouma-san? My part, inside of Clown Town, is a far more cynical world in comparison (laughs.) 

This is where Zelda ends for the time being. Next time, please look forward to the game’s release!

Source to original interview